‘It is a universally acknowledged truth that a single man in possession of a good fortune is in want of a wife.’– Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice.
It is 8:40 in the evening and I steal into our little entryway at the end of Almond Tree Lane. I plug in the heater, take out my Bible, arrange the computer, light a candle for atmosphere and wait. Behind the door that I have just closed, I can hear girl giggles at the antics of their new puppy mix with their daddy’s masculine tones. The time is almost near.
This inconspicuous interview, sandwiched in between the homework dash and the laundry crush and the puppy’s training, is the last hurdle between now and being ordained as a minister. It is controversial.
Women as pastors?
Ordain a woman?
called to preach
Oh, there is a lot of controversy. A lot of conversation. A lot of theologizing over this very question.
Herecy? Or the priesthood of all believers?
I could go there. I could write about Junia. Or Priscilla. Or the New Testament words of Jesus that create a level playing field for all of us.
Most of the time, the arguments, the theology, the proofs fall on deaf ears. ‘He who has ears, let him hear,’ Jesus said. Some don’t.
catching moments of a childhood
But, in a world where a Chinese doctor sells newborns to sex traffickers, how relevant is this discussion?
moments of play
In a world where Egyptian women, some of them illiterate, believe that they can change the course of their nation and with faith, cast their vote against the power structure of the Muslim Brotherhood, do we dare believe that God does not use women?
playing at being a girl
In a world where Afghan women risk their very lives to let the words of poetry roll a path of freedom across a muslim nation, do we still believe that God does not inhabit the feminine voices of the voiceless?
women leading worship
In a world where African girls are laid out in a tent and mutilated for the purposes of sexual purity, how clear is the clarion call for new understandings of heart holiness?
the virgin mother
So, yes, we can spend our time debating Junia and Priscilla and the the theological perimeters of a patriarchal society. We can talk context in Paul’s letters. I could even meet you for a stroll around the revolutionarily affirming words and attitudes and actions of Jesus toward the women in his world.
Or, we can get our hands dirty in ministry, you and I. Together.
a will to live
We can value the giftings that God has given each of us, irrespective of gender or culture or generation or color. We can embrace the beautifully heartbreaking reality that God has assigned each of us a parish – a place of pain, and sin, and suffering full of ordinary people who desperately need.
They need freedom. They need a voice. They need spiritual food. They need physical food and medicine and education and protection. They need Jesus. And quite frankly, in the moment of their deepest suffering, they don’t care if the arms of Jesus belong to a man or a woman.
They care that Jesus has the power to save them. And He does.
in bloom
So, right here in the middle of an entryway from which 5 women in the making and one man daily make our exit into the world that lives beyond Almond Tree Lane, I hit a button and connect with a board room in a church in Texas. Right here in the middle of the mundane mess of a Monday of laundry and meals and backpacks and puppy treats, I become part of a long line of men and women who testify to God’s call on their lives to preach his good message.
Tomorrow?
the hands that help
Tomorrow, I wil teach a class about an author named Jane Austen who challenged the chains that bound her generation. I will meet for coffee and deliver clothes to the family shelter and practice my horrible Hungarian and try to connect a ministry that cares about prostitutes in Hungary to the Open Door, a ministry that cares about prostitutes in Romania. And, I will make a meal and fold some laundry and redirect algebra questions to the father of the house, and say a prayer at the end of the day that our four little women recognized Jesus in their lives today and that they letHIM make them lights in the world that lives beyond Almond Tree Lane.
Ordain a woman?
2014. November. Central Europe Field. Bulgaria.
Thank you, South Texas District.
And, most of all, thank you, Jesus, for calling me and equipping me and using me … as a woman.
I feel your joy and your pain. We can see the doors opening wider each year. I am thankful for a husband who not only supports but encourages me in ministry.
As I start another class to meet my education requirements for ordination in the midst of home assignment and a trip to Quito for meetings and starting my kids back to US school (although I am not actually there at the moment), your words are a great encouragement. Thank you.
Does God use women? Of course, he does. It’s ridiculous to think otherwise. Does he use them in to stop sex trafficking and to eradicate social injustice? Absolutely. But you are speaking about a specific “role” that God has ordained. Man and woman, equal spiritually in every way, yet distinct in role. This rationale you are using in this post is similar to the persuasion used in politics. Tell a story to invoke an emotional response, so that it makes your thesis seem plausible.
“But, in a world where a Chinese doctor sells newborns to sex traffickers, how relevant is this discussion?” Anytime God speaks on ANY issue, it’s relevant to us today. Of course, we need to be URGENTLY and PASSIONATE doing ALL that we can to stop sex trafficking, but that doesn’t mean that other “less urgent” matters that God has spoken about should be ignored and be considered “not relevant” because there are seemingly more pressing matters.
“In a world where Egyptian women, some of them illiterate, believe that they can change the course of their nation and with faith, cast their vote against the power structure of the Muslim Brotherhood, do we dare believe that God does not use women?” – No Christian would EVER debate the fact the God uses women.
“In a world where Afghan women risk their very lives to let the words of poetry roll a path of freedom across a muslim nation, do we still believe that God does not inhabit the feminine voices of the voiceless?” – Of course God inhabits Spirit-filled women to give voices to the voiceless, but, unfortunately, this has absolutely nothing to do with your position on women shepherd/overseer/elder/bishop that you are trying to defend.
“In a world where African girls are laid out in a tent and mutilated for the purposes of sexual purity, how clear is the clarion call for new understandings of heart holiness?” – This absolutely horrific practice that takes place in Africa breaks my heart, and we, as followers of Christ, should all be actively involved in the infiltrating this culture with the Gospel of Jesus in hopes to reform this type of cultural atrocity. However, this does not ignore the Word of God on other issues just because we feel that this issue is more urgent.
I love your heart and your pursuit of Christ. I do not wish to discourage you in any way, and I will be praying that God will use you in dynamic ways as my sister in Christ. I am just saying that I disagree with the arguments you used to arrive at your conclusion.
Dear Brother,
If you do not wish to be the stereotypical big brother who thinks little sister can’t do everything boys can, if you do not wish to discourage in any way, then stop dismissing women’s logic as “emotion”, stop dismissing emotion itself, stop and listen to the logic you so “logically” dispute. Your arguments about “roles” are hard to find in the Bible. The author’s thesis *is* plausible. The Spirit often uses women to lead the fight against injustice. How could it be that the Spirit speaks through women in the streets, in the polling booths, but not when she’s behind a pulpit? There are millions of examples worldwide of the Spirit using women — and women pastors — to fight injustice, to speak life and hope and peace to their congregations and to show it in their communities. It is sad (for you, for all of us) that you don’t see that. I am grateful that brothers in South Texas do see that.
What logic? There is no logic in this article. It is an emotional appeal. The Spirit uses women to fight injustice– how does that have anything to do with women pastors? Even if I agreed with the author’s conclusion, it wouldn’t change the fact that she doesn’t use one scrap of logic (or a single Bible verse) to support her opinion.
Sister. I am sorry that you feel that way. May The Lord bless you as you serve him. I trust that we are still sisters in Christ and co-laborers, in spite of our disagreement. God go with you today. Teanna
The argument is about how God chooses to use women and how women are still oppressed in our society, perhaps even moreso in some societies today than in biblical times. After all, according to my sources, in the original Greek text of the new testament, there is absolutely nothing that says women can’t be leaders, and given the way some women were listed or written about, it is clear that women were being used as leaders, that at least one may have even been an apostle. Not from the original 12, but there is that argument. People took one passage of scripture about Paul not allowing women to teach that was simply based on a societal condition (a matriarchal society suddenly being given access to the only place they hadn’t been allowed to lead and being overzealous in taking over. They couldn’t teach because they did not yet have the knowledge.) and built an entire doctrine on it, ignoring all other evidences of women as leaders in the Bible. Distinct roles in the home? Yes. In physically demanding jobs? Perhaps. But I for one am not going to say that God doesn’t use women as pastors when the evidence from the Bible clearly shows some women as spiritual heads and leaders.
I feel comfortable debating the theology of the issue of ordaining women to be pastors/head leaders of a Church. Even having my mind changed.
However, I am not comfortable with being rabbit punched with the moral equivalence argument that if God won’t let me lead a church, it’s just as bad as sex trafficking and treating women as silent property to be used or abused at will.
I am a believer and I am a man. I am not a leader of a church, but I still believe there are many, MANY important ministries available to me.
While I believe theological debates can be beneficial, I feel that conforming God’s Word to a secular worldview is dangerous. It seems to me your argument is less about the strength of your theology and more about the confidence you have in your politically-correct sucker punch.
Hi Todd.
Thank you for your response. I did think about the ‘sucker punch’ as you called it when I wrote the post. I had hoped that a careful reading of my post would convey that this was not about a straw man argument. The basis for most protests against ordaining women ends with some kind of statement about the ‘Biblical perspective on the issue’, but a careful, conscientious hermeneutic actually reveals the the emphasis should be on our submission to one another and to God, our faith lived out in the real world, our holy activity producing transformation in us and through us by His Holy Spirit. So, the point of my post was essentially that, while this issue can be debated theologically, those debates take time and energy away from the things in which we really should be involving ourselves. Honestly, I think this has been one of Satan’s most successful strategies for neutralizing the Church. My point is, God does speak through men and women. More importantly, he wants to speak into the pain of today through you and through me. God has given you a parish as he has given one to me. Let us be lights there, servants there, poured out there, for God’s glory.
I always find it somewhat interesting that people can categorize things as ‘stories’. Once people are relegated to a story, they have so much less value. Somewhere in the world, somebody is suffering. Somewhere in your neighborhood. And if they are person instead of a story, you are morally responsible, spiritually impressed, and Biblically commanded to respond. No sucker punch. No political correctness. No moral equivalence. Just reality.
Finally, I was not in any way saying that being prohibited from leading a church is morally equivalent to sex trafficking. I was saying that because we are all called, according to our gifts and God’s sovereign will, we are required to respond to the moral evils in our world, required to give all that we to God for his use. Required to work for freedom, for humane treatment, for the provision of widows and orphans and all that fall in between.
Being active about the intersection of our faith and our work for the kingdom has nothing to do with political correctness. As I recall, it managed to get Jesus hung on a cross and not a small number of his disciples martyred.
My blessings to you brother, as you live out your faith in the world today. May you know his peace and feel his presence with you.
I am a woman and these social issues tug at my heart. But I agree with Todd, these things were happening in Biblical time as well. We can Not change what scripture says just because we “feel” it is not relevant anymore. The New Testament is clear what the requirements for being a pastor/elder.
A pastor is a teacher Women have been teaching since time began. I do not understand the idea women should not serve as a pastor. I get to see one first hand occasionally, my precious daughter-in-law.
JBMc 1/14/2014
My God is powerful enough to use anyone for Kingdom work, regardless of gender. The most memorable sermons that I’ve heard preached have been given by God to women to proclaim. Many will not accept the Word proclaimed by women or the pastoral care of women, but my God is all powerful and can use anyone for Kingdom work..
1. Of course God can use anyone, but has nothing to do with women becoming pastors.
2. “most memorable sermons…”: This doesn’t mean that the sermon was correct and even if it was theologically correct that doesn’t mean it is right for a women to be a pastor. You don’t have to be a pastor to give a memorable speech.
3. The problem has nothing to do with God being able to use someone or not, of course He can. The problem has nothing to do with the fact that a women can or can’t preach truth and grace, of course she can. The problem is that in the Bible there are clear roles for men/women. This has nothing to do with one being better then the other or more capable or more/less favored by God.
Thank you, John, for your response. I have approved the negative responses because there are many out there who have been swayed by your approach to scripture. I am hesitant to enter into a debate for the reasons I stated in the post. Most folks against ordaining women have made up their minds and are unlikely to change. But there is a generation that legitimately understands the need to put our theology and our faith into practice. A generation that believes that Jesus literally intended for us to pour ourselves out into ministry. There are times for theological debates – I could do that with you, but at what cost? What cost of precious time or energy or anger – and for what purpose? So that the world sees yet another example of Christians split and tearing at each other? I don’t sense that this is where Jesus leads me.
So, with Christian love and respect, I genuinely wish you the best, hope that you serve the kingdom well today, ask you to pray for me that I might do the same.
If you genuinely want to search the scriptures regarding this issue, may I suggest a wonderful book that academically and theologically addresses this issue. The book is published by YWAM. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1576581837
Blessings. Teanna
Poignant article! I long for the day when a woman appointed to a prestigious ministry assignment in the church is introduced simply as a dedicated Christ-follower who possesses the qualifications, expertise, and graces that commend her to the position. When we finally mature to that level and cease to question God’s judgement concerning His calls to ministry, press releases will no longer read, “the first woman… .” Congratulations on your ordination. I pray that God will continue to bless and use you.
I reread what I wrote after it posted and realized that I spelled a word incorrectly. The word is “judgment.” My Mac spellcheck let me down this time. : )
My mother believed in the Word, so when she could not become pregnant, she prayed Hannah’s prayer, and dedicated the child she wanted to serving as a minister of God. However, when a baby girl was born (me), followed a year later by my brother, she believed God answered her prayer through HIS birth (ie., that HE would be the minister). Then, she truly forgot all about her prayer….. for decades! Then, the night before I left for seminary, she dreamed about how she had prayed for and dedicated the child that turned out to me…. and the next day, she told me about it—-reluctantly, because she didn’t believe women should be ordained ministers. She actually said, “I forgot about my prayer, but maybe God didn’t.” (Hmmm…. maybe?) At any rate, she didn’t steer me into ministry at all. Instead, our pastor told me when I was still in high school that he believed I was called to be a pastor, and asked me to pray about it. My response? “I thought women can’t be pastors!” You see, at that point, our denomination (LCA) did not ordain women. I did pray, and gradually became aware of my being built as a pastor from conception—-and the Lord opened amazing doors for me (free tuition for seminary, etc.), blessing me with three awesome miracles right during my ordination, 32 years ago. SO—— I read this article with dismay as well as understanding. First, the latter: wherever I preached (over 80 churches) or served as pastor, for years, I was always the first woman who had done so there. “Wow! That was GREAT and you were GOOD!” was a typical response. Usually I was happy: I had successfully expressed what God’s Holy Spirit had inspired. But sometimes, I felt frustration: “What?! You sound as though you’re surprised that a woman can link together a compound sentence!” (Remember: much of this occurred decades ago.) So I DO understand feeling frustrated with believers who do not witness the OBVIOUS input and blessing of God upon the ministry of women. BUT, I did also feel dismay at this article, because the author almost seems haughty about those who oppose the ordination of women: “In the face of the horrors faced by women throughout the world, how can you oppose women’s ordination?” Well, that is a weak argument, frankly: women COULD and HAVE addressed such horrors SANS ordination for centuries, as deaconesses, nuns, teachers, nurses, etc. Furthermore, those in opposition truly believe they are honoring scripture!—and I honestly honor their response, having once believed that way myself. They are unconvinced by the evidence of God’s Presence and Power that flows through the ministry of ordained women, because they are striving to uphold the authority of scripture—-which we should all honor. When I came to know the Lord at the end of my years in seminary (understand: liberal Lutherans normally don’t seek that), I put my entire ministry on the altar and offered to serve God willingly in other, nonordained capacities—-and God brought me through with solid, biblical exegeses that put my mind (beyond merely the emotional hope of my heart and soul) at rest about this issue. I refer everyone to the beautiful and godly work of the scholars at Christians for Biblical Equality, where anyone can find substantive, convincing, and thoroughly solid reason to support the ordination of women. (But I do wish more people were already convinced by the very evident WORK of the Holy Spirit in our ministry……. *smile*). God be with each of us as we pray for discernment and inspiration in our various ministries, continually offering them up willingly to God’s cleansing and refining Love.
I loved the article and I really liked how your reply left room for the Christian women who have lovingly given their lives in ministry without ordination because they thought it was the right thing to do. I am the product of a home where both of my parents were ordained elders and my life hs been abundantly blessed. Their sacrifices opened doors to a thrilling life of Kingdom adventure for me and my wife. What a legacy!
I simply do not see any sound, biblical reasoning to support your assertion. The idea that it is not necessary to get into the theology of the subject because of the “cost of precious time or energy or anger” is hardly a convincing basis for your argument. I think you have spent more time arguing why its not necessary to discuss the theology than you would have spent on the theology itself.
In short, your post has more quotes from Jane Austen than it does from the Bible, and none of them support your premise. Relying on the appeal to emotion with your extreme examples in lieu of Biblical doctrine is not enough for me.
The author alludes to scripture and theological arguments that many people who are familiar with the argument/discussion will recognize. She mentions Junia and Priscilla, the discussion around context in Paul’s letters, how Jesus interacts with women etc. Her acknowledgment of existing biblical and theological reasoning that support her argument implies that she is well informed. It also clearly communicates that she is trying to add another angle to and perhaps embellish the existing argument not present the entire argument in one blog post.
Oh, dear: I see more points to ADD to my initial, long comment. Here:
“I want to add that the author writes beautifully and movingly. She is right that reasoned arguments are taxing, that our energies could be better directed at addressing the dreadful ways in which women are mistreated everywhere. She is also correct that many people opposed to women’s ordination have already read and dismissed those theological points—-so she is trying to draw people back, I believe, to witnessing how the Spirit IS MOVING through the ministry of women (whether they are ministering TO women, or also to men). Her point has validity—-but the title is off-putting, and the tone (again) seems haughty: “Don’t talk to me about women pastors.” The sad reality is that talk IS necessary—-and tiresome, and frustrating—-but simply required. Both sides need to remain open, to God and scripture and each other……. With much love in my heart for you all in this struggle, Teri”
I appreciate your comments, Rev. Teresa, and am wondering why I don’t see a response from the author of this webpage, although she comments on the comments on your comment.
Because the author had two skype meetings and one prayer meeting over the time that her responses came in. Her response was long and to do it justice takes more energy, time and thought. I did not have that luxury last night or today.
I would love to see grace, kindness and patience be a hallmark of all the responses on this site.
Hi there, no offense was intended whatsoever. I didn’t notice the timeline, just that there had been many other comments by you since this post. I was curious to read your response to Rev. Teresa’s comment, which I found unique, and hoped it would not be missed. I enjoyed your article and also would be happy to see grace and kindness employed in the comments. Writing an article and leaving it open for comments seems to me to require significant courage! Bless you.
Corr, thank you for your kind comment to me—-and for noticing that, although Teanna DID take time yesterday to write short replies to others’ comments, she did not do so for either of mine. I do definitely understand her being busy! However, I had written her 3 other short notes concerning technical details (an odd italicizing that the server made), which I asked her not to publish (they’d be boring and had zip to do with the topic, but just my comments’ presentation), which she thankfully didn’t publish. Nevertheless, I had at one point ADDED a comment to one of those 3 notes, in which I stated that I did HOPE that she would take NO offense to my posts! (I wish I had asked her to publish THAT sentence as well…..) Now that sufficient time has passed, I believe that my comments did offend her—–and her comment to your (Corr) note here seems to communicate (but we can only surmise, without her input) that she did NOT feel my initial (long) post contained “grace, kindness, and patience.” Hmm….. I do not believe in debating feelings, although clearly we should not make important decisions based solely upon them; ie., as this blog’s author/coordinator, she is entitled to make an assessment about not replying to a comment she felt was unnecessarily negative! In my case, I believe I was positive, even when I disagreed with her approach or attitude; I also clearly expressed admiration for her writing skills, AND my understanding her feeling tired of arguing theology. BUT I did state that I was dismayed by her rejection of dialogue (“Don’t talk to me about women pastors”) with those who oppose women’s ordination, because discussion, research and exegesis are what could help bring about understanding here, since those opponents obviously remain unconvinced by the clear evidence of the Holy Spirit’s movement in the ministry of ordained women. We only wound our efforts when we express our fatigue to opponents, rather than honor them with OUR patience. Oh well…. Receiving with grace and gratitude what seems to be unnecessarily negative feedback is VERY tough to pull off, I know—-especially when one is tired by the very issue at hand already! But God wants us ALL to be full of “grace, kindness, and patience,” even when we disagree strongly about issues. May God grant us also that PEACE in our discussions which only the Holy Spirit can work in our hearts……… AMEN
Hello Rev. Schink.
There was no insult meant by not responding and no insult taken by any of your posts. Your initial post was long and then you had several follow up posts, which took quite some time to read through. I made the corrections that you asked as best I could. But, your messages came in the midst of a busy point in my day. Later on, when things were a bit quieter, I felt that responding would mean going back and working through a response.
I wanted to allow all messages because I felt it important to keep an open dialogue. In doing so, I do not feel obliged to answer every message. There were others, negative and positive that I did not answer for various reasons.
So, again with good will, I thank you for your message.
I am a single mother of three and my daily struggle with illnesses, finances, and stability in life plague me. But when I read your writings it reminds me that I, as a woman and mother, have been called by God to do more than sit around and have fears and worries about my life and my children’s life. Your writings open my heart, soul, and mind to allow the spirit to move through me, awake my very being, and cry out for the Lord.
I believe that when we stand before God on our day of judgment he will question, “how did you serve me”? It won’t matter if we are male or female. Engaging in an argument on how Jesus is delivered to his people won’t matter when the numbers are tallied on the souls you helped to heaven . In the end, isn’t that all that matters? Dwelling in the house of the Lord forever together as brother and sister? God bless you and thank you for listening to God’s call for your life. Because of that I hear God a little clearer.
Sherry. Thank you for your response. It touched my heart. May the Lord bless you, encourage you, and fill your life with the stability, the health, and the finances you need. You have been called, most definitely, to serve your children and the other people in your parish – wherever that is. He will certainly both equip and faithfully enable you to do whatever He asks. God bless you. Do you live far from Hutchinson now?
When I was a little girl I thought that I would grow up to be a pastor’s wife. All the pastor wife examples that I knew played the piano, so I took lessons. I was part of a denomination that did not ordain women. I had no examples of women ministers and so I think that I was interpreting God’s call to ministry in the only way that I knew…a pastor’s wife.
Later, I found my way to a denomination that encourages women in ministry, and when I heard that clear call to be a pastor, my gender was not an issue. Instead I was required to demonstrate faithfulness, doctrinal understanding, spiritual gifts and fruitfulness.
I love being a minister. Every day is a gift. I sometimes wish I had entered ministry earlier, instead of as a second career. How might God have used me if I had recognized God’s call earlier? How might I be a better minister if I had served the church for all of my adult life? But mostly I am thankful to serve God in this time, here and now.
I will add my thanks to your district for recognizing and affirming your call. Welcome to ordained ministry and I will add my prayers to those of others celebrating your ordination that God continues to bless you in ministry.
I too, am a female pastor. I initially ran from His call for 34 years, before I finally gave up and started my journey towards being a minister. My husband wasn’t even a Christian at the time, but he supported me 150 %. It took me 10 years to reach my goal. I knew that God was not calling me to pastor a church, though at the time, I didn’t know in what direction He was leading me. In the middle of my education, I was diagnosed with 3 kinds of cancer, (all at the same time), and was told I had 3 weeks to live, so I took 2 years out for treatment. I was a social worker working at hospice. I have been cancer free for four years, and I’m now a hospice chaplain, as well as a certified grief counselor. Being a cancer survivor, totally changed my perspective towards my patients. God knew exactly what He was doing when He placed me as a chaplain. I love my job. I am now retired, but I’m still a volunteer chaplain. I’m so blessed. Keep on “keeping on”. God bless you and your ministry.
Ok so I get it. Women like men have the same call. This reasoning you give is mostly using the… ‘ look how God uses women’ argument and to be honest I agree. However I have a much more general problem. Of those who say they are called, God has called all to ministry to the poor, the orphan and the widow. God has called us to Go and make disciples, God has called US to be salt and light.
God has not called the insecure to gain self importance, God has not called the self-strong, the powerful or the inevitable pastors son/daughter who slips into ministry because it’s all he/she knows. God has not called people to be leaders to promote an insular church in our world.
So often I have seen this flippant elitist view and yet those who display the truest most ecumenical embracing Kingdom of God values and pro-active ministries being ignored, undervalued and ultimately unheard.
Women and men minister and that is good, but leadership is not for all who minister and sometimes we are called to be the hated and despised in this world. Sometimes we are called to feel uncomfortable. Sometimes it’s not anything to do with gender or prejudice or common sense. Sometimes we are called to be little Jesus’ and offer our lives as a living sacrifice.
Teanna, thank you for your insightful, bold, and true words. Your post strikes the nerve of such a hot topic, and I cannot agree more with you. I am a second career female pastor. Still in seminary, but thoroughly engaged in shepherding a small church in Indiana, USA. I agree with many of the responses above, and think you are right in directing people’s attention to the core issues of what matters most – serving the people who are in need. Often, we get so hung up on labeling, but you point your listeners to consider what is most important, and challenge people to think. I want to thank you for being a bold woman, and for your gift of words. I will continue to follow your blog, and keep your family and ministry in my prayers. Blessings to you!
A note for those of you who serve God in an organization that does not recognize women in ministry: Your church leaders need to tell God to stop calling women! God doesn’t seem to know He is not supposed to call them.
Long before I knew that women in ordained ministry was a controversial topic, and very early in my Christian faith journey, this thought occurred to me: “women, being nurturing, are naturally made for ministry’. Now, years later, more scripturally grounded, that thought remains. In fact, it was the example of a woman pastor that set me on a spiritual journey that has been unwavering for 24 years. She visited me in my hospital room, said my name, enfolded me in His arms of love. I love the author’s argument; I just don’t need convincing. When God calls, do we obey….or argue?
Thank you for ‘getting’ my point. I appreciate it. As I have seen the responses yesterday, I began to worry that I had achieved exactly the opposite. I am so tired of the argument and debate when the world around us cries out for Jesus. Blessings.
I love your statement, “can get our hands dirty in ministry, you and I. Together.”
Yes and amen! You know, there will always be huge debate about women in ministry and leadership in the church – but what I’ve come to find is that as I simply get on with the calling of my Lord over my life that the arguments fade away, because quite frankly, I’m too busy doing the work of the Lord to talk about whether I should be or not.
Awesome post. Considering that I am a daughter of one, I think I am qualified to say that women pastors are great pastors 😀 (Even if I don’t go to mom’s church that often these days…)
Ahh, wonderful, Zee. Your post makes me the happiest. And, I often think of your mom when I need encouragement in this ministry journey. She is an amazing woman of God and an incredibly gifted pastor. What a beautiful heritage. Teanna
A distinction needs to be made between “serving God’s kingdom” and “being a pastor”. I don’t think anyone is arguing that women can not or should not be used to do God’s work and His will. Women have been blessed with strong and necessary attributes that absolutely have a extremely important place in doing God’s work.
But that fact does not undo the words of scripture in 1st Timothy 2:12-14 where Paul tells us,
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”
This passage is in direct contradiction to the idea that a woman should be in the position of pastor, as she would have authority over men in that case. People often use Deborah and her position as a judge as an example of a women having authority over men, and thus invalidating the above verse. But the key difference is that Deborah did not have such a position in the church, her post was a legal one not a spiritual one.
Its easy to get caught up in the political correctness of our day, but its important for our choices to remain biblically based. Re-interpreting biblical texts to fit our modern agenda is a dangerous and slippery slope to go down.
You present one of many of the accepted arguments used against women. I wonder, using the same approach, what you do with Leviticus 12:3 ‘And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. This is a commandment. Would you then say that all men serving as pastors across the globe must be circumcised? Exodus 12:46 also speaks strongly regarding circumcision. And, let’s be clear that, though it is an Old Testament commandment, Jesus clearly stated that he came to fulfill the law not negate it.
I am also wondering if you have short hair? And, do you cover your head when you pray, when you come to worship, or do you keep your head covered all day, every day? I Corinthians 11:3-16
But, I digress a bit because the thesis of my blog was that the debate over this tends to be fruitless. I wish you the very best in your work for the kingdom. I truly believe that the outcome of this debate matters less than the reality of our pouring out our lives for Him. If you are serving Jesus, then I can stand by you as a woman in Christ, regardless of how you feel about ordination. I hope you feel the same.
Yes. It is. I choose peace. Again, may God bless you. Teanna
Thank you for your reply.
In response to you examples in the Old Testament regarding circumcision, those laws, along with many other rituals of the OT, were made inconsequential with the coming of Christ and the forming of the new covenant (Galations 6:15). Jesus did come to fulfill the law, and HE was the fulfillment of the law and of the prophets. Because of His sacrifice, the law is no longer necessary.
I do think it is important to honor ALL of the Bible, so yes I do believe a woman’s head should be covered (either with a covering or her own hair), and a man’s head should be uncovered. Could it be considered inconvenient, unfashionable or even unnecessary? Yes it could. But it is also what the Bible tells us to do, and who am I to pick and choose what parts of the Bible are necessary and what are not?
I do agree that the ultimate calling of all Christians is to serve the Kingdom above all else, but to me a big part of doing that is to follow the words of scripture. I can’t see how one can be done without the other.
So, may I ask you, then, when you choose to cover your hair? Only in prayer? I do not think that our hair serves as the covering. That is not what Paul means here and it is pretty clear.
What do you do with Paul’s words in Galatians 3:27-29?
A head covering is a symbol of submission, and Paul instructs us that during prayer and prophesy is the time when the covering should be worn.
I assume you are referring to the, “nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus,” part of that passage you referenced. Paul is speaking there in reference to baptism, and salvation through Jesus. We are all one in Christ because of his gift of salvation; it is not our gender, race or social status that saves us, but rather our faith in Jesus. Being one in the body of Chris does not however contradict the instruction of specific roles for male and females within that body. I think its quite clear that Paul is not trying to say that males and females are no longer distinctly different, as they most definitely are.
Thank you Eshelle. Bless you.
Eshelle, even though I disagreed with Teanna’s rejection of discussing this topic (ie. that we should move being talking to putting our faith in action as ordained women), you are trying here to engage her IN talking through these theological issues. Teanna is tired of them; we should honor her fatigue, and understand it. Bion, I was trying to do that, while also noting that we MUST engage in debate, eventually—-but clearly she’s not up to that right now, so you should honor her fatigue, see? And please take NO offense to my noting that, okay? (And I agree with your point about Deborah….) Anyway, honoring Teanna and many other ordained women’s fatigue with discussing theological point IS why I referred opponents to the excellent exegeses and articles found in Christians for Biblical Equality (at cbeinternational.org ). BUT I am NOT tired and I will mention two theological points, okay? First, my Jewish friend and lawyer notes that Christians pick and choose which “rules” or precepts to follow, while ignoring others that do not correspond to their bias or heritage, such as why do we no longer favor stoning homosexuals, etc.? Pretty good point…… Our answer as Christians is that SOME practices of the OT were abrogated by Jesus’ sacrificial death and resurrection, which made all things new. But the question is: who determines WHICH practices are locked in time and cultural, and which should be honored for all time, such as the ordination of women? Sometimes, things aren’t terrifically clear, as CBE notes about one passage in Timothy…. Second, I would like to raise again MY hope, that people who oppose the ordination of women would follow their own logic to its conclusion: IF it were against God’s Word for women to be ordained, why then would God’s Holy Spirit clearly BLESS the work in ministry of ordained women? Why doesn’t God send us signs of judgment or anger? Listen: 40 years ago, when I was still pre-sem in college, I was warned by such opponents that EVERY person I ever gave communion to in the future as an ordained women WOULD GO TO HELL, because I would be serving in a role forbidden to women! What has happened instead? Through the work of the Holy Spirit through my and many other women’s ordained ministry, people have been blessed, honored, tended, counseled, healed in body and spirit, prayed with, taught, baptized, confirmed in their faith (back when I was Lutheran, mind), helped to find their purpose and gifts, and some have gone on to become pastors as well. God has NOT struck us with death or other clear signs of reproach! So…. think that through, people of God, is my fervent prayer and admonition—-because YOU might be coming against the Lord’s Anointed Ones. And God is the only and final Judge, not me or you. Just be logical about this: where do you see signs of God’s judgment? I think you will find NONE, if you are honest. Actually, I just remembered where I first heard this point: it was made by a kindly gentleman who was an ordained minister in another branch of Lutheranism (the MO Synod), which does NOT ordain women! He couldn’t understand why NOT, given God’s obvious BLESSING upon women’s ordained ministry. Let those who have ears, hear—-and again, you have my blessing, honor, and love.
Do you have a blog site? Maybe those that would like to engage with you in deeper debate over this issue could enjoy conversation there hosted by you.
I see your points, Teanna…. No, I have no blog spot. May God bless you and yours. With Love in Christ, Teresa
If a debate is not wanted that I will not try to continue having one, but I think it bears saying that its somewhat unreasonable for one to propose a controversial idea, and then declare that they don’t want to discuss it further because it is a waste of time.
Its not really fair to expect people to readily agree with your point of view for your own sake, particularly when the original post does not contain any biblical reasoning to support your belief.
Hi Eshelle.
I am not sure that I am obliged to debate with you.
Firstly, the point of my blog was the desire not to debate this topic. I have no expectation of changing your mind and that is okay. I leave you to your opinion. The point of my blog was that I prefer to spend our time and energy in ministry to others, even if we do not agree about the topic of ordination.
Secondly, Christian debates that intensify and divide us have a negative effect upon our witness to the world.
I have no qualms about your vocalization of a differing viewpoint. That is why, as the host of this blog, I allowed the comments. But, in the same way, as host of the blog, I have a responsibility to keep it fair and positive with a tone toward unity.
Even with my impetus to not engage in a debate that becomes heated, I probably responded to strongly. Though I do not agree with you, I genuinely wish you the best. May God bless you.
Teanna, thank you for your blog. I think you have made some very important points. I have studied the theology of women as pastors upside, downside and sideways. I just don’t get what the big deal is. God created PEOPLE in God’s image, male and female. People get blinded by words and arguments and they lose the sight of real people and lose sight of love. What was it that 1 Corinthians 13 said about beating the air and having all kinds of wonderful arguments etc, but not having love.
I love that God uses all kinds of people in all kinds of ways. Narratives and stories of people, men and women, gay and straight (yes I went there, oh noes!!!) have gifts and talents and are created and called by the Divine Sophia wisdom/word of God to do wondrous things. Who are we mere mortals to think we have the corner on who God is or who God calls or who the Divine uses? Be free people!
First of all, Congratulations on this great article and also on your ordination!
Actually, I was surprised a bit that you have not been ordained yet…knowing (or rather just guessing) the extension and the quality of your ministry, I would say it is about time…:-)
I am always happy when I hear/read about ladies are being ordained and/or appointed into a high church office.
I know that you also know that many times ladies in leadership positions do a way better job that men do (or would do) and of course, this creates a tension…:-) well, we should not be jealous of each other’s success but rather we should be inspired by that…
We will see things differently when we will be with Him up there…:-)
Anyway, I just wanted to say that You ARE a wonderful example of a woman being in ministry, providing/creating home and raising 4 amazing young ladies (co-work with Jay) – Seeing your example makes me humbly thanking the Lord for His grace and blessings upon you and your family!
Gyula. Your words encourage my heart. Thank you for your kindness. We also enjoy knowing that you are active in ministry. Though you are not in Hungary (wish that you were), your faithfulness in ministry is a testimony to God’s call. Thank you for being a faithful servant. BTW, once you had a few hours in a loud house with those 4 young ladies, you might wonder about the quality of our home 🙂 Loud. Often messy. Lots of makeup. Lots of drama. We would not have it any other way – they are our joy. Blessings.
I respect your decision not to debate this so I won’t. I will point out you do employ a logical fallacy that is used in debates, especially political debates. We can’t talk about wrong X because wrong Y is so much worse. We shouldn’t correct small injustice A because injustice B is far greater. On an almost daily basis you will find examples of this in speeches by politicians or in comments n articles about funding. E.g. Why do we spend money on [important national program] while there are so many children starving to death?
Or why do we spend money on building churches when there are so many impoverished people in the world being oppressed?
Using logical fallacies undermines the points even when the points are 100% correct. In this case, a logical and Scriptural based argument was omitted in exchange for a logical fallacy and an appeal to emotion (also a fallacy when used to support another fallacy).
Very quickly, I am trying to stay true to my commitment to not debate this issue in this forum. However, I have found it interesting to read your message a a couple of others that focus on a criticism of my logic when, I think, a careful reading of the post shows that your criticism of ‘logical fallacy’ is not actually based upon my post. In other words, I question your comprehension of what has been written. A careful reading would show the following outline:
I am a woman and a mother who is called to preach. I am reaching the end of my journey toward ordination. The post celebrates that fact.
I do recognize that the issue is controversial, but I choose not to enter into a debate due to the following points:
A. Debate rarely changes minds on this subject and is, therefore, usually pointless
B. There is horrible suffering in the world and, as Christians, we are called to actively be involved in ministry to the hurting
C. God does speak and work through the voices and lives of women – even those that are not ordained
D. Therefore, in lieu of spending time and energy on arguing over an issue that will probably remain unsettled, let us roll up our sleeves and work together as Christians to be the hands and feet of Jesus, in unity, instead of being divided and divisive.
E. It is the hope and prayer of both my husband and myself that our daughters would early on recognize God’s giftings in their lives and intentionally live to serve Jesus and the world beyond their home.
So, if my argument is emotional, there is a reason for that. As a missionary, I daily witness the reality of prostitutes on the road, homeless people begging for money, and kids who do not have enough to eat. I am faced with decisions about how to act and react and how to use my limited resources best to help them. I know the inconvenience of not being able to wipe away pain with glib Bible verses, which is, I hope why I am careful about how I wield God’s Word. I pray that I never stop being emotional about the pain of our world because I think it keeps us humble as Christians and useful in the kingdom – a sort of remedy to the problem of a clanging bell.
While your definition of a logical fallacy is spot-on, my post does not serve your analysis.
Thank you for reading my post. I appreciate that you took the time to reply and to think about what I wrote. May the Lord bless you and keep you today and may you live as a light for Him in your world. I have prayed the same thing for myself today. God bless you richly.
I am sad that you deleted my reply rather than respond to it, as I think it raised some important questions. I sincerely hope you find and use Bible-based truths in all you efforts moving forward.
Eshelle. I did not delete your comment. I read it on the move as I was juggling several things yesterday. I thought that I had approved it, as I have approved all of your other comments.
Especially because there are already so many Biblical defenses all people being used by the Holy Spirit in all kinds of ministry (see Christians for Biblical Equality, etc., etc.), it seems quite logical to me to ask why the church is spending so much time debating the “role” of women. For those of us who minister outside American Christian bubbles, and who see that life is practically hell on earth for so many people around the world, it seems quite logical to us that it’s time to stop arguing about women can and can’t do, and to actually be out ministering to people without limits. There is much more in the Bible about loving all people, justice, and serving the poor than about the “role” of a woman. Let’s logically base our priorities on the priorities of Scripture, roll up our sleeves and dig in together.
Nothing is more important than to serve God’s kingdom by spreading the word and showing Christ’s love everywhere. That said, the reason a debate is taking place on this page is because of the author’s choice to call herself a “ordained woman pastor”. This very strongly implies being the head of a church, and seeking the actual title of “pastor” and the church leadership responsibilities that come with it through an official organization. This to me goes beyond simply “ministering to people in need”, as you do not need to be ordained to show Christ’s love to people. The fact that the author seeks ordainment and wants the leadership position of “woman pastor” is where the biblical conflict lies.
I think there would be much less controversy about the original post if the author simply stated they wanted to serve the kingdom, rather than try to justify female pastor-ship with emotion that is contrary to the Bible.
I mean this in all due respect, but to be perfectly frank I find your general lack of discernment to be concerning, considering the responsibility you are taking on by becoming a pastor. The fact that you cannot recognize that your post is most definitely based on a logical fallacy as Alyssa said should be a reason for you to pause. In reading your post, it is not a “celebration of the end of a journey”, but rather you using emotion-based reasoning to justify your position.
There is certainly nothing wrong with being emotional, and listening to your emotions. But our emotions also need to be checked against sound, bible-based judgement. Particularly when our emotions are contrary to biblical teachings, we must really take a step back and consider our position. That you find the topic of female pastors to be unworthy of discussion on the grounds of, “there are more important things to do,” is not only a logical fallacy, but a dangerous spiritual position to take. I would be wary of the teachings of someone willing to eschew the Bible in favor of their personal emotion. What are you going to base your ministry on if not the Bible?
A passage of caution from 2nd Timothy 4:
“preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.”
Eshelle. As the mother of 4 daughters, I think some of my best lessons in discernment have taught me that arguing rarely, if ever, ends well for anybody.
You do not agree with ordaining women and I have no problem with that. Though I do not agree with your position, my goal is not to change your mind, I am certain it would be a fruitless effort to try. In order for us to really discuss this in a way that would be peaceful and God-glorifying, I think we would need to know one another and have a relationship of mutual respect. Without that, this just becomes an exercise in using scripture as a weapon against one another. I don’t want that.
Again, with peace in my heart, I want to encourage you to serve the Lord and to be a light in your world. May God bless you richly for your servanthood.
It would not be a fruitless effort to try and change my mind, if you sincerely believe in your position and have biblical reasoning to support it, you SHOULD be sharing it to help grow people who do not know it. I don’t view bible references here as “using scripture as a weapon”, but rather i’m using them to convey my position to you and show why I believe what I do. I would not mind in the slightest or feel attacked if you showed me scripture that supported your beliefs.
I do not think a mother arguing with teenage daughters is analogous to adults discussing theology; I am not looking to ‘win’ but rather to find and follow the truth, which is what I would hope we are all doing. I am not closed to your position on women pastors, I just have yet to see you support that position with any solid evidence.
As you read these posts you could come away with the impression many responders assume that there is no scriptural support for women in ministry.
A vibrant and growing Christian community welcomes God-called women to lead congregations in countries where the women have the necessary education to prepare for ministry and where their culture is sufficiently accepting of women in leadership.
I grew up in Latin America. Fifty years ago I visited congregations where I think I would have advised something very similar to what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14. Sometimes the new freedom that salvation brought to women led to some disorder in the services. I know those conditions are no longer present in those churches today. Much has changed since then.
If you want to insist that the prohibition of women in leadership applies to all churches and all circumstances, you must interpret scriptures that uphold the practice of slavery the same way. I don’t know any Christians that think slavery is justifiable even though you could argue that the Bible justifies it based on some scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments.
You may say Galatians 3 didn’t apply, but I have trouble separating it from this argument: “26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
This reality was forseen in Joel 2:28 and quoted in Acts 2:17 “In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.”
I don’t know what you want to do with Philip the evangelist; he had four daughters who prophesied (Acts 21:8).
I don’t know if they were ministers, but several women held important positions in the early church (Acts 1:12-14, 18:24-26, 21:7-9, Romans 16:1-16).
And what about Deborah, the judge in the Old Testament? I named my first daughter after her!
And then there is the present reality: God is still calling women to the ministry! We seem to be a little backward here in the U.S. – there are a number of women heading up churches in the rest of the Americas and the World today, but I don’t think there are as many here (anybody out there who can correct me if I am wrong?).
Oh boy Kenneth. I don’t even know where to begin, there so much unsound reasoning in your post.
The first key point that people seem to have trouble grasping is that there is a very big difference between:
A) A woman serving the lord
-and-
B) A woman being a pastor
Its important to note that distinction because many seem to have the impression that people are claiming that women are incapable of serving God. That is not true. What is true is that women are told to not have position of authority over a man within the church (1 Tim 2). This is not a debate about capability, its a debate about roles. Women are instructed to be submissive. Our society views submission as a negative attribute and a inferior position to be in; its important to not let that worldly view poison our thoughts. View submission for what the Bible presents it as: a part of the role God has given women, a calling no less important and no less noble that any other.
Acknowledging slavery in the Bible is not the same as condoning it. Its giving instruction for how a slave should act if they are put in that position. It is not an instruction for us to go out and enslave people.
Your quote:
“You may say Galatians 3 didn’t apply, but I have trouble separating it from this argument:
(Galations 3:26-29)”
What argument? You simply quoted a Bible verse with no explanation. I can infer what your are saying, that “male and female are one in Christ”. I would not try to dispute that, I agree with that. However that has nothing to do with roles within the church. The passage is speaking to us about how salvation is from Christ and given through faith, not because of race, gender or class. This is not a passage about church structure.
The bible does not say women should not prophesy (again, the distinction between serving God and being a pastor). In fact, Paul gives specific instruction about how a woman should dress when she does prophesize in 1 Cor 11.
None of the verses you listed are examples of women pastors. I don’t know any way to refute your point more clearly than to suggest you simply read the verses. There is no indication expressed or implied that any of those women are pastors. Again, women serving God is not the same thing as a woman being a pastor.
Deborah was a judge. She held a legal position in the world, not a position of spiritual authority in the church. Again, it is important to remember that no one is suggesting women ( or men for that matter) are incapable of filling different roles. The point is that the Bible has instructed us on defined roles for men and women, and it is our duty to follow that.
Isaiah 43:18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
I know the above does not necessarilly apply to this dialog, but the principle expressed in it certainly does.
It took Peter and the other leaders in Jerusalem a while to catch on that God was doing a new thing in reaching the Gentiles.
Could it be that God is doing a new thing today? God is calling women into ministry and they are pastoring churches and people are being reached in places where they are sorely needed (I am thinking of specific ministers here). Is God allowed to do that?
God is allowed to do whatever he wants. The problem with your reasoning is that the claim of “God is doing a new thing” is an un-biblical statement that you could erroneously apply to virtually any situation in the world.
If I want to make the claim based simply on my own opinion that “God is doing a new thing by using polygamy to show that we should not limit our love to just one spouse.” What would you say to me? My statement is not supported by the Bible, and neither is yours. I can claim “God is doing this or that”, but what good is my opinion if it has no biblical support. Once we stop basing our beliefs on the BIble, we become no different than any other worldly way of thinking.
The reality is this. There is no greater “role” whether a woman is serving God as a housewife, working a full time job or as a pastor. The debate on whether a woman can be pastor is almost a waste of time. My point is that to think that a pastor is greater than a custodian who constantly shares the gospel and is a light where he is, is absurd and unbiblical.
To understand calling let’s look at it a certain way. If God is in charge of building His church, then like any construction site, you need workers and sub-contractors. If a sub-contractor doesn’t answer their phone after numerous times then God has to find another one. The reason more woman are in more “leadership” roles today, is because more men aren’t answering the call. One day we will be judge not by what we did but by what we were called to do. No matter what “role” we have in the church, the fact is that if we do not do the role we have been called to do then we are in sin. It is a sin to know what we ought to do and not do it. (James 4:17)
Women can be a pastor, teacher, singer or evangangelist. No part of the body is greater than another and are all necessary. There should not be a debate on whether a woman can have a ministry. Ministry is full time position for everyone though, we should either be ministering to others or constnslty ministering to God. Every single person has the same calling on their life. That calling Is to be apart of the church and in Christ, only our function is different. We can be in ministry and not in Christ. If we are in Christ then we are automatically in ministry. God is moving and using anyone who answers his call. If men and women refuse his call he can use rocks or whatever he choses.
A couple of thoughts came to me as I read what you wrote and then read the comments. First, God calls whoever God wants to do the massive amount of work that needs to be done for God’s kingdom. We get caught up in arguing about who can and cannot be called while there is so much pain and suffering in the world. All are needed to do the work of God. Some of the commenters said you didn’t logically or theologically support your position. You only used story. Well, Jesus used story all the time to teach. Story can be powerful. It doesn’t always wrap things up in a neat package, but encourages and challenges us to think and to search our hearts. Keeps the stories coming.
Having read the initial article and all of the comments I’m hesitant to wade in with an opinion. However, talk of pastors (male or female) and ordination etc takes my mind back to the following article about Who we see as worthy of ordination. I seriously think it is worth taking time to consider what Mike Frost talks about here. http://www.theworkofthepeople.com – go to browse and search eliminate laity to watch his short video.
hi jaime. thank you for that link. i am a big fan of michael frost. i reposted the video to my facebook – friend me and you will find the comment i made with it regarding ordination. Teanna Sunberg facebook page. And, I do agree with you that we are all sent / ordained. For me, ordained also has the additional important nuance of spiritual growth and academic rigeur in order to serve with a strong theological core.
teanna sunberg 
as the mother of a female pastor, I weep in compassion and in joy.
I feel your joy and your pain. We can see the doors opening wider each year. I am thankful for a husband who not only supports but encourages me in ministry.
As I start another class to meet my education requirements for ordination in the midst of home assignment and a trip to Quito for meetings and starting my kids back to US school (although I am not actually there at the moment), your words are a great encouragement. Thank you.
God bless your work for the Lord Jesus, dear sister. Please carry on.
Wonderful! Wonderful!!
Does God use women? Of course, he does. It’s ridiculous to think otherwise. Does he use them in to stop sex trafficking and to eradicate social injustice? Absolutely. But you are speaking about a specific “role” that God has ordained. Man and woman, equal spiritually in every way, yet distinct in role. This rationale you are using in this post is similar to the persuasion used in politics. Tell a story to invoke an emotional response, so that it makes your thesis seem plausible.
“But, in a world where a Chinese doctor sells newborns to sex traffickers, how relevant is this discussion?” Anytime God speaks on ANY issue, it’s relevant to us today. Of course, we need to be URGENTLY and PASSIONATE doing ALL that we can to stop sex trafficking, but that doesn’t mean that other “less urgent” matters that God has spoken about should be ignored and be considered “not relevant” because there are seemingly more pressing matters.
“In a world where Egyptian women, some of them illiterate, believe that they can change the course of their nation and with faith, cast their vote against the power structure of the Muslim Brotherhood, do we dare believe that God does not use women?” – No Christian would EVER debate the fact the God uses women.
“In a world where Afghan women risk their very lives to let the words of poetry roll a path of freedom across a muslim nation, do we still believe that God does not inhabit the feminine voices of the voiceless?” – Of course God inhabits Spirit-filled women to give voices to the voiceless, but, unfortunately, this has absolutely nothing to do with your position on women shepherd/overseer/elder/bishop that you are trying to defend.
“In a world where African girls are laid out in a tent and mutilated for the purposes of sexual purity, how clear is the clarion call for new understandings of heart holiness?” – This absolutely horrific practice that takes place in Africa breaks my heart, and we, as followers of Christ, should all be actively involved in the infiltrating this culture with the Gospel of Jesus in hopes to reform this type of cultural atrocity. However, this does not ignore the Word of God on other issues just because we feel that this issue is more urgent.
I love your heart and your pursuit of Christ. I do not wish to discourage you in any way, and I will be praying that God will use you in dynamic ways as my sister in Christ. I am just saying that I disagree with the arguments you used to arrive at your conclusion.
Dear Brother,
If you do not wish to be the stereotypical big brother who thinks little sister can’t do everything boys can, if you do not wish to discourage in any way, then stop dismissing women’s logic as “emotion”, stop dismissing emotion itself, stop and listen to the logic you so “logically” dispute. Your arguments about “roles” are hard to find in the Bible. The author’s thesis *is* plausible. The Spirit often uses women to lead the fight against injustice. How could it be that the Spirit speaks through women in the streets, in the polling booths, but not when she’s behind a pulpit? There are millions of examples worldwide of the Spirit using women — and women pastors — to fight injustice, to speak life and hope and peace to their congregations and to show it in their communities. It is sad (for you, for all of us) that you don’t see that. I am grateful that brothers in South Texas do see that.
What logic? There is no logic in this article. It is an emotional appeal. The Spirit uses women to fight injustice– how does that have anything to do with women pastors? Even if I agreed with the author’s conclusion, it wouldn’t change the fact that she doesn’t use one scrap of logic (or a single Bible verse) to support her opinion.
Sister. I am sorry that you feel that way. May The Lord bless you as you serve him. I trust that we are still sisters in Christ and co-laborers, in spite of our disagreement. God go with you today. Teanna
The argument is about how God chooses to use women and how women are still oppressed in our society, perhaps even moreso in some societies today than in biblical times. After all, according to my sources, in the original Greek text of the new testament, there is absolutely nothing that says women can’t be leaders, and given the way some women were listed or written about, it is clear that women were being used as leaders, that at least one may have even been an apostle. Not from the original 12, but there is that argument. People took one passage of scripture about Paul not allowing women to teach that was simply based on a societal condition (a matriarchal society suddenly being given access to the only place they hadn’t been allowed to lead and being overzealous in taking over. They couldn’t teach because they did not yet have the knowledge.) and built an entire doctrine on it, ignoring all other evidences of women as leaders in the Bible. Distinct roles in the home? Yes. In physically demanding jobs? Perhaps. But I for one am not going to say that God doesn’t use women as pastors when the evidence from the Bible clearly shows some women as spiritual heads and leaders.
Very nice article.
Great stuff! Thanks so much for this. I’ll be recommending it to others!
Thomas Jay Oord
I feel comfortable debating the theology of the issue of ordaining women to be pastors/head leaders of a Church. Even having my mind changed.
However, I am not comfortable with being rabbit punched with the moral equivalence argument that if God won’t let me lead a church, it’s just as bad as sex trafficking and treating women as silent property to be used or abused at will.
I am a believer and I am a man. I am not a leader of a church, but I still believe there are many, MANY important ministries available to me.
While I believe theological debates can be beneficial, I feel that conforming God’s Word to a secular worldview is dangerous. It seems to me your argument is less about the strength of your theology and more about the confidence you have in your politically-correct sucker punch.
Hi Todd.
Thank you for your response. I did think about the ‘sucker punch’ as you called it when I wrote the post. I had hoped that a careful reading of my post would convey that this was not about a straw man argument. The basis for most protests against ordaining women ends with some kind of statement about the ‘Biblical perspective on the issue’, but a careful, conscientious hermeneutic actually reveals the the emphasis should be on our submission to one another and to God, our faith lived out in the real world, our holy activity producing transformation in us and through us by His Holy Spirit. So, the point of my post was essentially that, while this issue can be debated theologically, those debates take time and energy away from the things in which we really should be involving ourselves. Honestly, I think this has been one of Satan’s most successful strategies for neutralizing the Church. My point is, God does speak through men and women. More importantly, he wants to speak into the pain of today through you and through me. God has given you a parish as he has given one to me. Let us be lights there, servants there, poured out there, for God’s glory.
I always find it somewhat interesting that people can categorize things as ‘stories’. Once people are relegated to a story, they have so much less value. Somewhere in the world, somebody is suffering. Somewhere in your neighborhood. And if they are person instead of a story, you are morally responsible, spiritually impressed, and Biblically commanded to respond. No sucker punch. No political correctness. No moral equivalence. Just reality.
Finally, I was not in any way saying that being prohibited from leading a church is morally equivalent to sex trafficking. I was saying that because we are all called, according to our gifts and God’s sovereign will, we are required to respond to the moral evils in our world, required to give all that we to God for his use. Required to work for freedom, for humane treatment, for the provision of widows and orphans and all that fall in between.
Being active about the intersection of our faith and our work for the kingdom has nothing to do with political correctness. As I recall, it managed to get Jesus hung on a cross and not a small number of his disciples martyred.
My blessings to you brother, as you live out your faith in the world today. May you know his peace and feel his presence with you.
Thank you for your reply.
Teanna
I am a woman and these social issues tug at my heart. But I agree with Todd, these things were happening in Biblical time as well. We can Not change what scripture says just because we “feel” it is not relevant anymore. The New Testament is clear what the requirements for being a pastor/elder.
A pastor is a teacher Women have been teaching since time began. I do not understand the idea women should not serve as a pastor. I get to see one first hand occasionally, my precious daughter-in-law.
JBMc 1/14/2014
Maybe you should read the Bible.
I do. Daily.
My God is powerful enough to use anyone for Kingdom work, regardless of gender. The most memorable sermons that I’ve heard preached have been given by God to women to proclaim. Many will not accept the Word proclaimed by women or the pastoral care of women, but my God is all powerful and can use anyone for Kingdom work..
1. Of course God can use anyone, but has nothing to do with women becoming pastors.
2. “most memorable sermons…”: This doesn’t mean that the sermon was correct and even if it was theologically correct that doesn’t mean it is right for a women to be a pastor. You don’t have to be a pastor to give a memorable speech.
3. The problem has nothing to do with God being able to use someone or not, of course He can. The problem has nothing to do with the fact that a women can or can’t preach truth and grace, of course she can. The problem is that in the Bible there are clear roles for men/women. This has nothing to do with one being better then the other or more capable or more/less favored by God.
Thank you, John, for your response. I have approved the negative responses because there are many out there who have been swayed by your approach to scripture. I am hesitant to enter into a debate for the reasons I stated in the post. Most folks against ordaining women have made up their minds and are unlikely to change. But there is a generation that legitimately understands the need to put our theology and our faith into practice. A generation that believes that Jesus literally intended for us to pour ourselves out into ministry. There are times for theological debates – I could do that with you, but at what cost? What cost of precious time or energy or anger – and for what purpose? So that the world sees yet another example of Christians split and tearing at each other? I don’t sense that this is where Jesus leads me.
So, with Christian love and respect, I genuinely wish you the best, hope that you serve the kingdom well today, ask you to pray for me that I might do the same.
If you genuinely want to search the scriptures regarding this issue, may I suggest a wonderful book that academically and theologically addresses this issue. The book is published by YWAM. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1576581837
Blessings. Teanna
Poignant article! I long for the day when a woman appointed to a prestigious ministry assignment in the church is introduced simply as a dedicated Christ-follower who possesses the qualifications, expertise, and graces that commend her to the position. When we finally mature to that level and cease to question God’s judgement concerning His calls to ministry, press releases will no longer read, “the first woman… .” Congratulations on your ordination. I pray that God will continue to bless and use you.
I reread what I wrote after it posted and realized that I spelled a word incorrectly. The word is “judgment.” My Mac spellcheck let me down this time. : )
Are these guys (Brother, John, Todd) for real?
Are these guys (Brother, John, Todd) for real? They’re clearly from another age, and perhaps another universe…
My mother believed in the Word, so when she could not become pregnant, she prayed Hannah’s prayer, and dedicated the child she wanted to serving as a minister of God. However, when a baby girl was born (me), followed a year later by my brother, she believed God answered her prayer through HIS birth (ie., that HE would be the minister). Then, she truly forgot all about her prayer….. for decades! Then, the night before I left for seminary, she dreamed about how she had prayed for and dedicated the child that turned out to me…. and the next day, she told me about it—-reluctantly, because she didn’t believe women should be ordained ministers. She actually said, “I forgot about my prayer, but maybe God didn’t.” (Hmmm…. maybe?) At any rate, she didn’t steer me into ministry at all. Instead, our pastor told me when I was still in high school that he believed I was called to be a pastor, and asked me to pray about it. My response? “I thought women can’t be pastors!” You see, at that point, our denomination (LCA) did not ordain women. I did pray, and gradually became aware of my being built as a pastor from conception—-and the Lord opened amazing doors for me (free tuition for seminary, etc.), blessing me with three awesome miracles right during my ordination, 32 years ago. SO—— I read this article with dismay as well as understanding. First, the latter: wherever I preached (over 80 churches) or served as pastor, for years, I was always the first woman who had done so there. “Wow! That was GREAT and you were GOOD!” was a typical response. Usually I was happy: I had successfully expressed what God’s Holy Spirit had inspired. But sometimes, I felt frustration: “What?! You sound as though you’re surprised that a woman can link together a compound sentence!” (Remember: much of this occurred decades ago.) So I DO understand feeling frustrated with believers who do not witness the OBVIOUS input and blessing of God upon the ministry of women. BUT, I did also feel dismay at this article, because the author almost seems haughty about those who oppose the ordination of women: “In the face of the horrors faced by women throughout the world, how can you oppose women’s ordination?” Well, that is a weak argument, frankly: women COULD and HAVE addressed such horrors SANS ordination for centuries, as deaconesses, nuns, teachers, nurses, etc. Furthermore, those in opposition truly believe they are honoring scripture!—and I honestly honor their response, having once believed that way myself. They are unconvinced by the evidence of God’s Presence and Power that flows through the ministry of ordained women, because they are striving to uphold the authority of scripture—-which we should all honor. When I came to know the Lord at the end of my years in seminary (understand: liberal Lutherans normally don’t seek that), I put my entire ministry on the altar and offered to serve God willingly in other, nonordained capacities—-and God brought me through with solid, biblical exegeses that put my mind (beyond merely the emotional hope of my heart and soul) at rest about this issue. I refer everyone to the beautiful and godly work of the scholars at Christians for Biblical Equality, where anyone can find substantive, convincing, and thoroughly solid reason to support the ordination of women. (But I do wish more people were already convinced by the very evident WORK of the Holy Spirit in our ministry……. *smile*). God be with each of us as we pray for discernment and inspiration in our various ministries, continually offering them up willingly to God’s cleansing and refining Love.
I loved the article and I really liked how your reply left room for the Christian women who have lovingly given their lives in ministry without ordination because they thought it was the right thing to do. I am the product of a home where both of my parents were ordained elders and my life hs been abundantly blessed. Their sacrifices opened doors to a thrilling life of Kingdom adventure for me and my wife. What a legacy!
Beautiful testimony, Kenneth. Thank you!
I simply do not see any sound, biblical reasoning to support your assertion. The idea that it is not necessary to get into the theology of the subject because of the “cost of precious time or energy or anger” is hardly a convincing basis for your argument. I think you have spent more time arguing why its not necessary to discuss the theology than you would have spent on the theology itself.
In short, your post has more quotes from Jane Austen than it does from the Bible, and none of them support your premise. Relying on the appeal to emotion with your extreme examples in lieu of Biblical doctrine is not enough for me.
The author alludes to scripture and theological arguments that many people who are familiar with the argument/discussion will recognize. She mentions Junia and Priscilla, the discussion around context in Paul’s letters, how Jesus interacts with women etc. Her acknowledgment of existing biblical and theological reasoning that support her argument implies that she is well informed. It also clearly communicates that she is trying to add another angle to and perhaps embellish the existing argument not present the entire argument in one blog post.
Oh, dear: I see more points to ADD to my initial, long comment. Here:
“I want to add that the author writes beautifully and movingly. She is right that reasoned arguments are taxing, that our energies could be better directed at addressing the dreadful ways in which women are mistreated everywhere. She is also correct that many people opposed to women’s ordination have already read and dismissed those theological points—-so she is trying to draw people back, I believe, to witnessing how the Spirit IS MOVING through the ministry of women (whether they are ministering TO women, or also to men). Her point has validity—-but the title is off-putting, and the tone (again) seems haughty: “Don’t talk to me about women pastors.” The sad reality is that talk IS necessary—-and tiresome, and frustrating—-but simply required. Both sides need to remain open, to God and scripture and each other……. With much love in my heart for you all in this struggle, Teri”
I appreciate your comments, Rev. Teresa, and am wondering why I don’t see a response from the author of this webpage, although she comments on the comments on your comment.
Because the author had two skype meetings and one prayer meeting over the time that her responses came in. Her response was long and to do it justice takes more energy, time and thought. I did not have that luxury last night or today.
I would love to see grace, kindness and patience be a hallmark of all the responses on this site.
Hi there, no offense was intended whatsoever. I didn’t notice the timeline, just that there had been many other comments by you since this post. I was curious to read your response to Rev. Teresa’s comment, which I found unique, and hoped it would not be missed. I enjoyed your article and also would be happy to see grace and kindness employed in the comments. Writing an article and leaving it open for comments seems to me to require significant courage! Bless you.
Corr, thank you for your kind comment to me—-and for noticing that, although Teanna DID take time yesterday to write short replies to others’ comments, she did not do so for either of mine. I do definitely understand her being busy! However, I had written her 3 other short notes concerning technical details (an odd italicizing that the server made), which I asked her not to publish (they’d be boring and had zip to do with the topic, but just my comments’ presentation), which she thankfully didn’t publish. Nevertheless, I had at one point ADDED a comment to one of those 3 notes, in which I stated that I did HOPE that she would take NO offense to my posts! (I wish I had asked her to publish THAT sentence as well…..) Now that sufficient time has passed, I believe that my comments did offend her—–and her comment to your (Corr) note here seems to communicate (but we can only surmise, without her input) that she did NOT feel my initial (long) post contained “grace, kindness, and patience.” Hmm….. I do not believe in debating feelings, although clearly we should not make important decisions based solely upon them; ie., as this blog’s author/coordinator, she is entitled to make an assessment about not replying to a comment she felt was unnecessarily negative! In my case, I believe I was positive, even when I disagreed with her approach or attitude; I also clearly expressed admiration for her writing skills, AND my understanding her feeling tired of arguing theology. BUT I did state that I was dismayed by her rejection of dialogue (“Don’t talk to me about women pastors”) with those who oppose women’s ordination, because discussion, research and exegesis are what could help bring about understanding here, since those opponents obviously remain unconvinced by the clear evidence of the Holy Spirit’s movement in the ministry of ordained women. We only wound our efforts when we express our fatigue to opponents, rather than honor them with OUR patience. Oh well…. Receiving with grace and gratitude what seems to be unnecessarily negative feedback is VERY tough to pull off, I know—-especially when one is tired by the very issue at hand already! But God wants us ALL to be full of “grace, kindness, and patience,” even when we disagree strongly about issues. May God grant us also that PEACE in our discussions which only the Holy Spirit can work in our hearts……… AMEN
Hello Rev. Schink.
There was no insult meant by not responding and no insult taken by any of your posts. Your initial post was long and then you had several follow up posts, which took quite some time to read through. I made the corrections that you asked as best I could. But, your messages came in the midst of a busy point in my day. Later on, when things were a bit quieter, I felt that responding would mean going back and working through a response.
I wanted to allow all messages because I felt it important to keep an open dialogue. In doing so, I do not feel obliged to answer every message. There were others, negative and positive that I did not answer for various reasons.
So, again with good will, I thank you for your message.
I am a single mother of three and my daily struggle with illnesses, finances, and stability in life plague me. But when I read your writings it reminds me that I, as a woman and mother, have been called by God to do more than sit around and have fears and worries about my life and my children’s life. Your writings open my heart, soul, and mind to allow the spirit to move through me, awake my very being, and cry out for the Lord.
I believe that when we stand before God on our day of judgment he will question, “how did you serve me”? It won’t matter if we are male or female. Engaging in an argument on how Jesus is delivered to his people won’t matter when the numbers are tallied on the souls you helped to heaven . In the end, isn’t that all that matters? Dwelling in the house of the Lord forever together as brother and sister? God bless you and thank you for listening to God’s call for your life. Because of that I hear God a little clearer.
Sherry. Thank you for your response. It touched my heart. May the Lord bless you, encourage you, and fill your life with the stability, the health, and the finances you need. You have been called, most definitely, to serve your children and the other people in your parish – wherever that is. He will certainly both equip and faithfully enable you to do whatever He asks. God bless you. Do you live far from Hutchinson now?
My only problem… It is spelled “heresy” not “herecy”. I’m a word nerd! 😉
You are absolutely right. I am thankful for word nerds! Appreciate it.
When I was a little girl I thought that I would grow up to be a pastor’s wife. All the pastor wife examples that I knew played the piano, so I took lessons. I was part of a denomination that did not ordain women. I had no examples of women ministers and so I think that I was interpreting God’s call to ministry in the only way that I knew…a pastor’s wife.
Later, I found my way to a denomination that encourages women in ministry, and when I heard that clear call to be a pastor, my gender was not an issue. Instead I was required to demonstrate faithfulness, doctrinal understanding, spiritual gifts and fruitfulness.
I love being a minister. Every day is a gift. I sometimes wish I had entered ministry earlier, instead of as a second career. How might God have used me if I had recognized God’s call earlier? How might I be a better minister if I had served the church for all of my adult life? But mostly I am thankful to serve God in this time, here and now.
I will add my thanks to your district for recognizing and affirming your call. Welcome to ordained ministry and I will add my prayers to those of others celebrating your ordination that God continues to bless you in ministry.
Beautiful words, Cyndi. Thank you for sharing
Preach on, my sister. Joining you in the ongoing work — because we are equipped and called to do so. Blessings on your work and your day!
I too, am a female pastor. I initially ran from His call for 34 years, before I finally gave up and started my journey towards being a minister. My husband wasn’t even a Christian at the time, but he supported me 150 %. It took me 10 years to reach my goal. I knew that God was not calling me to pastor a church, though at the time, I didn’t know in what direction He was leading me. In the middle of my education, I was diagnosed with 3 kinds of cancer, (all at the same time), and was told I had 3 weeks to live, so I took 2 years out for treatment. I was a social worker working at hospice. I have been cancer free for four years, and I’m now a hospice chaplain, as well as a certified grief counselor. Being a cancer survivor, totally changed my perspective towards my patients. God knew exactly what He was doing when He placed me as a chaplain. I love my job. I am now retired, but I’m still a volunteer chaplain. I’m so blessed. Keep on “keeping on”. God bless you and your ministry.
Ok so I get it. Women like men have the same call. This reasoning you give is mostly using the… ‘ look how God uses women’ argument and to be honest I agree. However I have a much more general problem. Of those who say they are called, God has called all to ministry to the poor, the orphan and the widow. God has called us to Go and make disciples, God has called US to be salt and light.
God has not called the insecure to gain self importance, God has not called the self-strong, the powerful or the inevitable pastors son/daughter who slips into ministry because it’s all he/she knows. God has not called people to be leaders to promote an insular church in our world.
So often I have seen this flippant elitist view and yet those who display the truest most ecumenical embracing Kingdom of God values and pro-active ministries being ignored, undervalued and ultimately unheard.
Women and men minister and that is good, but leadership is not for all who minister and sometimes we are called to be the hated and despised in this world. Sometimes we are called to feel uncomfortable. Sometimes it’s not anything to do with gender or prejudice or common sense. Sometimes we are called to be little Jesus’ and offer our lives as a living sacrifice.
Matthew. Thank you for your post. I could not agree more.
Teanna, thank you for your insightful, bold, and true words. Your post strikes the nerve of such a hot topic, and I cannot agree more with you. I am a second career female pastor. Still in seminary, but thoroughly engaged in shepherding a small church in Indiana, USA. I agree with many of the responses above, and think you are right in directing people’s attention to the core issues of what matters most – serving the people who are in need. Often, we get so hung up on labeling, but you point your listeners to consider what is most important, and challenge people to think. I want to thank you for being a bold woman, and for your gift of words. I will continue to follow your blog, and keep your family and ministry in my prayers. Blessings to you!
Thank you so much. Your encouraging words touch my soul. Blessings.
A note for those of you who serve God in an organization that does not recognize women in ministry: Your church leaders need to tell God to stop calling women! God doesn’t seem to know He is not supposed to call them.
Good point.
ROFLMAO!
Excellent point!
Long before I knew that women in ordained ministry was a controversial topic, and very early in my Christian faith journey, this thought occurred to me: “women, being nurturing, are naturally made for ministry’. Now, years later, more scripturally grounded, that thought remains. In fact, it was the example of a woman pastor that set me on a spiritual journey that has been unwavering for 24 years. She visited me in my hospital room, said my name, enfolded me in His arms of love. I love the author’s argument; I just don’t need convincing. When God calls, do we obey….or argue?
Thank you for ‘getting’ my point. I appreciate it. As I have seen the responses yesterday, I began to worry that I had achieved exactly the opposite. I am so tired of the argument and debate when the world around us cries out for Jesus. Blessings.
I love your statement, “can get our hands dirty in ministry, you and I. Together.”
Yes and amen! You know, there will always be huge debate about women in ministry and leadership in the church – but what I’ve come to find is that as I simply get on with the calling of my Lord over my life that the arguments fade away, because quite frankly, I’m too busy doing the work of the Lord to talk about whether I should be or not.
Carry on in the blessing and favour of our God
Awesome post. Considering that I am a daughter of one, I think I am qualified to say that women pastors are great pastors 😀 (Even if I don’t go to mom’s church that often these days…)
Ahh, wonderful, Zee. Your post makes me the happiest. And, I often think of your mom when I need encouragement in this ministry journey. She is an amazing woman of God and an incredibly gifted pastor. What a beautiful heritage. Teanna
A distinction needs to be made between “serving God’s kingdom” and “being a pastor”. I don’t think anyone is arguing that women can not or should not be used to do God’s work and His will. Women have been blessed with strong and necessary attributes that absolutely have a extremely important place in doing God’s work.
But that fact does not undo the words of scripture in 1st Timothy 2:12-14 where Paul tells us,
“I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.”
This passage is in direct contradiction to the idea that a woman should be in the position of pastor, as she would have authority over men in that case. People often use Deborah and her position as a judge as an example of a women having authority over men, and thus invalidating the above verse. But the key difference is that Deborah did not have such a position in the church, her post was a legal one not a spiritual one.
Its easy to get caught up in the political correctness of our day, but its important for our choices to remain biblically based. Re-interpreting biblical texts to fit our modern agenda is a dangerous and slippery slope to go down.
Eshelle. Thank you for your comment.
You present one of many of the accepted arguments used against women. I wonder, using the same approach, what you do with Leviticus 12:3 ‘And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. This is a commandment. Would you then say that all men serving as pastors across the globe must be circumcised? Exodus 12:46 also speaks strongly regarding circumcision. And, let’s be clear that, though it is an Old Testament commandment, Jesus clearly stated that he came to fulfill the law not negate it.
I am also wondering if you have short hair? And, do you cover your head when you pray, when you come to worship, or do you keep your head covered all day, every day? I Corinthians 11:3-16
But, I digress a bit because the thesis of my blog was that the debate over this tends to be fruitless. I wish you the very best in your work for the kingdom. I truly believe that the outcome of this debate matters less than the reality of our pouring out our lives for Him. If you are serving Jesus, then I can stand by you as a woman in Christ, regardless of how you feel about ordination. I hope you feel the same.
Blessings. Teanna
Tu quoque? Is this the best you have?
Yes. It is. I choose peace. Again, may God bless you. Teanna
Thank you for your reply.
In response to you examples in the Old Testament regarding circumcision, those laws, along with many other rituals of the OT, were made inconsequential with the coming of Christ and the forming of the new covenant (Galations 6:15). Jesus did come to fulfill the law, and HE was the fulfillment of the law and of the prophets. Because of His sacrifice, the law is no longer necessary.
I do think it is important to honor ALL of the Bible, so yes I do believe a woman’s head should be covered (either with a covering or her own hair), and a man’s head should be uncovered. Could it be considered inconvenient, unfashionable or even unnecessary? Yes it could. But it is also what the Bible tells us to do, and who am I to pick and choose what parts of the Bible are necessary and what are not?
I do agree that the ultimate calling of all Christians is to serve the Kingdom above all else, but to me a big part of doing that is to follow the words of scripture. I can’t see how one can be done without the other.
So, may I ask you, then, when you choose to cover your hair? Only in prayer? I do not think that our hair serves as the covering. That is not what Paul means here and it is pretty clear.
What do you do with Paul’s words in Galatians 3:27-29?
A head covering is a symbol of submission, and Paul instructs us that during prayer and prophesy is the time when the covering should be worn.
I assume you are referring to the, “nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus,” part of that passage you referenced. Paul is speaking there in reference to baptism, and salvation through Jesus. We are all one in Christ because of his gift of salvation; it is not our gender, race or social status that saves us, but rather our faith in Jesus. Being one in the body of Chris does not however contradict the instruction of specific roles for male and females within that body. I think its quite clear that Paul is not trying to say that males and females are no longer distinctly different, as they most definitely are.
Thank you Eshelle. Bless you.
Eshelle, even though I disagreed with Teanna’s rejection of discussing this topic (ie. that we should move being talking to putting our faith in action as ordained women), you are trying here to engage her IN talking through these theological issues. Teanna is tired of them; we should honor her fatigue, and understand it. Bion, I was trying to do that, while also noting that we MUST engage in debate, eventually—-but clearly she’s not up to that right now, so you should honor her fatigue, see? And please take NO offense to my noting that, okay? (And I agree with your point about Deborah….) Anyway, honoring Teanna and many other ordained women’s fatigue with discussing theological point IS why I referred opponents to the excellent exegeses and articles found in Christians for Biblical Equality (at cbeinternational.org ). BUT I am NOT tired and I will mention two theological points, okay? First, my Jewish friend and lawyer notes that Christians pick and choose which “rules” or precepts to follow, while ignoring others that do not correspond to their bias or heritage, such as why do we no longer favor stoning homosexuals, etc.? Pretty good point…… Our answer as Christians is that SOME practices of the OT were abrogated by Jesus’ sacrificial death and resurrection, which made all things new. But the question is: who determines WHICH practices are locked in time and cultural, and which should be honored for all time, such as the ordination of women? Sometimes, things aren’t terrifically clear, as CBE notes about one passage in Timothy…. Second, I would like to raise again MY hope, that people who oppose the ordination of women would follow their own logic to its conclusion: IF it were against God’s Word for women to be ordained, why then would God’s Holy Spirit clearly BLESS the work in ministry of ordained women? Why doesn’t God send us signs of judgment or anger? Listen: 40 years ago, when I was still pre-sem in college, I was warned by such opponents that EVERY person I ever gave communion to in the future as an ordained women WOULD GO TO HELL, because I would be serving in a role forbidden to women! What has happened instead? Through the work of the Holy Spirit through my and many other women’s ordained ministry, people have been blessed, honored, tended, counseled, healed in body and spirit, prayed with, taught, baptized, confirmed in their faith (back when I was Lutheran, mind), helped to find their purpose and gifts, and some have gone on to become pastors as well. God has NOT struck us with death or other clear signs of reproach! So…. think that through, people of God, is my fervent prayer and admonition—-because YOU might be coming against the Lord’s Anointed Ones. And God is the only and final Judge, not me or you. Just be logical about this: where do you see signs of God’s judgment? I think you will find NONE, if you are honest. Actually, I just remembered where I first heard this point: it was made by a kindly gentleman who was an ordained minister in another branch of Lutheranism (the MO Synod), which does NOT ordain women! He couldn’t understand why NOT, given God’s obvious BLESSING upon women’s ordained ministry. Let those who have ears, hear—-and again, you have my blessing, honor, and love.
Rev. Schink,
Do you have a blog site? Maybe those that would like to engage with you in deeper debate over this issue could enjoy conversation there hosted by you.
I see your points, Teanna…. No, I have no blog spot. May God bless you and yours. With Love in Christ, Teresa
If a debate is not wanted that I will not try to continue having one, but I think it bears saying that its somewhat unreasonable for one to propose a controversial idea, and then declare that they don’t want to discuss it further because it is a waste of time.
Its not really fair to expect people to readily agree with your point of view for your own sake, particularly when the original post does not contain any biblical reasoning to support your belief.
Hi Eshelle.
I am not sure that I am obliged to debate with you.
Firstly, the point of my blog was the desire not to debate this topic. I have no expectation of changing your mind and that is okay. I leave you to your opinion. The point of my blog was that I prefer to spend our time and energy in ministry to others, even if we do not agree about the topic of ordination.
Secondly, Christian debates that intensify and divide us have a negative effect upon our witness to the world.
I have no qualms about your vocalization of a differing viewpoint. That is why, as the host of this blog, I allowed the comments. But, in the same way, as host of the blog, I have a responsibility to keep it fair and positive with a tone toward unity.
Even with my impetus to not engage in a debate that becomes heated, I probably responded to strongly. Though I do not agree with you, I genuinely wish you the best. May God bless you.
Teanna, thank you for your blog. I think you have made some very important points. I have studied the theology of women as pastors upside, downside and sideways. I just don’t get what the big deal is. God created PEOPLE in God’s image, male and female. People get blinded by words and arguments and they lose the sight of real people and lose sight of love. What was it that 1 Corinthians 13 said about beating the air and having all kinds of wonderful arguments etc, but not having love.
I love that God uses all kinds of people in all kinds of ways. Narratives and stories of people, men and women, gay and straight (yes I went there, oh noes!!!) have gifts and talents and are created and called by the Divine Sophia wisdom/word of God to do wondrous things. Who are we mere mortals to think we have the corner on who God is or who God calls or who the Divine uses? Be free people!
Hey Teanna!
First of all, Congratulations on this great article and also on your ordination!
Actually, I was surprised a bit that you have not been ordained yet…knowing (or rather just guessing) the extension and the quality of your ministry, I would say it is about time…:-)
I am always happy when I hear/read about ladies are being ordained and/or appointed into a high church office.
I know that you also know that many times ladies in leadership positions do a way better job that men do (or would do) and of course, this creates a tension…:-) well, we should not be jealous of each other’s success but rather we should be inspired by that…
We will see things differently when we will be with Him up there…:-)
Anyway, I just wanted to say that You ARE a wonderful example of a woman being in ministry, providing/creating home and raising 4 amazing young ladies (co-work with Jay) – Seeing your example makes me humbly thanking the Lord for His grace and blessings upon you and your family!
Blessings,
Gyula
Gyula. Your words encourage my heart. Thank you for your kindness. We also enjoy knowing that you are active in ministry. Though you are not in Hungary (wish that you were), your faithfulness in ministry is a testimony to God’s call. Thank you for being a faithful servant. BTW, once you had a few hours in a loud house with those 4 young ladies, you might wonder about the quality of our home 🙂 Loud. Often messy. Lots of makeup. Lots of drama. We would not have it any other way – they are our joy. Blessings.
This is phenomenal! Thanks for bringing it all back to the core.
I respect your decision not to debate this so I won’t. I will point out you do employ a logical fallacy that is used in debates, especially political debates. We can’t talk about wrong X because wrong Y is so much worse. We shouldn’t correct small injustice A because injustice B is far greater. On an almost daily basis you will find examples of this in speeches by politicians or in comments n articles about funding. E.g. Why do we spend money on [important national program] while there are so many children starving to death?
Or why do we spend money on building churches when there are so many impoverished people in the world being oppressed?
Using logical fallacies undermines the points even when the points are 100% correct. In this case, a logical and Scriptural based argument was omitted in exchange for a logical fallacy and an appeal to emotion (also a fallacy when used to support another fallacy).
Hi Alyssa.
Very quickly, I am trying to stay true to my commitment to not debate this issue in this forum. However, I have found it interesting to read your message a a couple of others that focus on a criticism of my logic when, I think, a careful reading of the post shows that your criticism of ‘logical fallacy’ is not actually based upon my post. In other words, I question your comprehension of what has been written. A careful reading would show the following outline:
I am a woman and a mother who is called to preach. I am reaching the end of my journey toward ordination. The post celebrates that fact.
I do recognize that the issue is controversial, but I choose not to enter into a debate due to the following points:
A. Debate rarely changes minds on this subject and is, therefore, usually pointless
B. There is horrible suffering in the world and, as Christians, we are called to actively be involved in ministry to the hurting
C. God does speak and work through the voices and lives of women – even those that are not ordained
D. Therefore, in lieu of spending time and energy on arguing over an issue that will probably remain unsettled, let us roll up our sleeves and work together as Christians to be the hands and feet of Jesus, in unity, instead of being divided and divisive.
E. It is the hope and prayer of both my husband and myself that our daughters would early on recognize God’s giftings in their lives and intentionally live to serve Jesus and the world beyond their home.
So, if my argument is emotional, there is a reason for that. As a missionary, I daily witness the reality of prostitutes on the road, homeless people begging for money, and kids who do not have enough to eat. I am faced with decisions about how to act and react and how to use my limited resources best to help them. I know the inconvenience of not being able to wipe away pain with glib Bible verses, which is, I hope why I am careful about how I wield God’s Word. I pray that I never stop being emotional about the pain of our world because I think it keeps us humble as Christians and useful in the kingdom – a sort of remedy to the problem of a clanging bell.
While your definition of a logical fallacy is spot-on, my post does not serve your analysis.
Thank you for reading my post. I appreciate that you took the time to reply and to think about what I wrote. May the Lord bless you and keep you today and may you live as a light for Him in your world. I have prayed the same thing for myself today. God bless you richly.
Teanna
I am sad that you deleted my reply rather than respond to it, as I think it raised some important questions. I sincerely hope you find and use Bible-based truths in all you efforts moving forward.
Eshelle. I did not delete your comment. I read it on the move as I was juggling several things yesterday. I thought that I had approved it, as I have approved all of your other comments.
Especially because there are already so many Biblical defenses all people being used by the Holy Spirit in all kinds of ministry (see Christians for Biblical Equality, etc., etc.), it seems quite logical to me to ask why the church is spending so much time debating the “role” of women. For those of us who minister outside American Christian bubbles, and who see that life is practically hell on earth for so many people around the world, it seems quite logical to us that it’s time to stop arguing about women can and can’t do, and to actually be out ministering to people without limits. There is much more in the Bible about loving all people, justice, and serving the poor than about the “role” of a woman. Let’s logically base our priorities on the priorities of Scripture, roll up our sleeves and dig in together.
Nothing is more important than to serve God’s kingdom by spreading the word and showing Christ’s love everywhere. That said, the reason a debate is taking place on this page is because of the author’s choice to call herself a “ordained woman pastor”. This very strongly implies being the head of a church, and seeking the actual title of “pastor” and the church leadership responsibilities that come with it through an official organization. This to me goes beyond simply “ministering to people in need”, as you do not need to be ordained to show Christ’s love to people. The fact that the author seeks ordainment and wants the leadership position of “woman pastor” is where the biblical conflict lies.
I think there would be much less controversy about the original post if the author simply stated they wanted to serve the kingdom, rather than try to justify female pastor-ship with emotion that is contrary to the Bible.
I mean this in all due respect, but to be perfectly frank I find your general lack of discernment to be concerning, considering the responsibility you are taking on by becoming a pastor. The fact that you cannot recognize that your post is most definitely based on a logical fallacy as Alyssa said should be a reason for you to pause. In reading your post, it is not a “celebration of the end of a journey”, but rather you using emotion-based reasoning to justify your position.
There is certainly nothing wrong with being emotional, and listening to your emotions. But our emotions also need to be checked against sound, bible-based judgement. Particularly when our emotions are contrary to biblical teachings, we must really take a step back and consider our position. That you find the topic of female pastors to be unworthy of discussion on the grounds of, “there are more important things to do,” is not only a logical fallacy, but a dangerous spiritual position to take. I would be wary of the teachings of someone willing to eschew the Bible in favor of their personal emotion. What are you going to base your ministry on if not the Bible?
A passage of caution from 2nd Timothy 4:
“preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.”
Eshelle. As the mother of 4 daughters, I think some of my best lessons in discernment have taught me that arguing rarely, if ever, ends well for anybody.
You do not agree with ordaining women and I have no problem with that. Though I do not agree with your position, my goal is not to change your mind, I am certain it would be a fruitless effort to try. In order for us to really discuss this in a way that would be peaceful and God-glorifying, I think we would need to know one another and have a relationship of mutual respect. Without that, this just becomes an exercise in using scripture as a weapon against one another. I don’t want that.
Again, with peace in my heart, I want to encourage you to serve the Lord and to be a light in your world. May God bless you richly for your servanthood.
Teanna
It would not be a fruitless effort to try and change my mind, if you sincerely believe in your position and have biblical reasoning to support it, you SHOULD be sharing it to help grow people who do not know it. I don’t view bible references here as “using scripture as a weapon”, but rather i’m using them to convey my position to you and show why I believe what I do. I would not mind in the slightest or feel attacked if you showed me scripture that supported your beliefs.
I do not think a mother arguing with teenage daughters is analogous to adults discussing theology; I am not looking to ‘win’ but rather to find and follow the truth, which is what I would hope we are all doing. I am not closed to your position on women pastors, I just have yet to see you support that position with any solid evidence.
As you read these posts you could come away with the impression many responders assume that there is no scriptural support for women in ministry.
A vibrant and growing Christian community welcomes God-called women to lead congregations in countries where the women have the necessary education to prepare for ministry and where their culture is sufficiently accepting of women in leadership.
I grew up in Latin America. Fifty years ago I visited congregations where I think I would have advised something very similar to what Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14. Sometimes the new freedom that salvation brought to women led to some disorder in the services. I know those conditions are no longer present in those churches today. Much has changed since then.
If you want to insist that the prohibition of women in leadership applies to all churches and all circumstances, you must interpret scriptures that uphold the practice of slavery the same way. I don’t know any Christians that think slavery is justifiable even though you could argue that the Bible justifies it based on some scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments.
You may say Galatians 3 didn’t apply, but I have trouble separating it from this argument: “26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
This reality was forseen in Joel 2:28 and quoted in Acts 2:17 “In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.”
I don’t know what you want to do with Philip the evangelist; he had four daughters who prophesied (Acts 21:8).
I don’t know if they were ministers, but several women held important positions in the early church (Acts 1:12-14, 18:24-26, 21:7-9, Romans 16:1-16).
And what about Deborah, the judge in the Old Testament? I named my first daughter after her!
And then there is the present reality: God is still calling women to the ministry! We seem to be a little backward here in the U.S. – there are a number of women heading up churches in the rest of the Americas and the World today, but I don’t think there are as many here (anybody out there who can correct me if I am wrong?).
So well said, Kenneth!
Oh boy Kenneth. I don’t even know where to begin, there so much unsound reasoning in your post.
The first key point that people seem to have trouble grasping is that there is a very big difference between:
A) A woman serving the lord
-and-
B) A woman being a pastor
Its important to note that distinction because many seem to have the impression that people are claiming that women are incapable of serving God. That is not true. What is true is that women are told to not have position of authority over a man within the church (1 Tim 2). This is not a debate about capability, its a debate about roles. Women are instructed to be submissive. Our society views submission as a negative attribute and a inferior position to be in; its important to not let that worldly view poison our thoughts. View submission for what the Bible presents it as: a part of the role God has given women, a calling no less important and no less noble that any other.
Acknowledging slavery in the Bible is not the same as condoning it. Its giving instruction for how a slave should act if they are put in that position. It is not an instruction for us to go out and enslave people.
Your quote:
“You may say Galatians 3 didn’t apply, but I have trouble separating it from this argument:
(Galations 3:26-29)”
What argument? You simply quoted a Bible verse with no explanation. I can infer what your are saying, that “male and female are one in Christ”. I would not try to dispute that, I agree with that. However that has nothing to do with roles within the church. The passage is speaking to us about how salvation is from Christ and given through faith, not because of race, gender or class. This is not a passage about church structure.
The bible does not say women should not prophesy (again, the distinction between serving God and being a pastor). In fact, Paul gives specific instruction about how a woman should dress when she does prophesize in 1 Cor 11.
None of the verses you listed are examples of women pastors. I don’t know any way to refute your point more clearly than to suggest you simply read the verses. There is no indication expressed or implied that any of those women are pastors. Again, women serving God is not the same thing as a woman being a pastor.
Deborah was a judge. She held a legal position in the world, not a position of spiritual authority in the church. Again, it is important to remember that no one is suggesting women ( or men for that matter) are incapable of filling different roles. The point is that the Bible has instructed us on defined roles for men and women, and it is our duty to follow that.
Isaiah 43:18 Remember ye not the former things, neither consider the things of old. 19 Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.
I know the above does not necessarilly apply to this dialog, but the principle expressed in it certainly does.
It took Peter and the other leaders in Jerusalem a while to catch on that God was doing a new thing in reaching the Gentiles.
Could it be that God is doing a new thing today? God is calling women into ministry and they are pastoring churches and people are being reached in places where they are sorely needed (I am thinking of specific ministers here). Is God allowed to do that?
God is allowed to do whatever he wants. The problem with your reasoning is that the claim of “God is doing a new thing” is an un-biblical statement that you could erroneously apply to virtually any situation in the world.
If I want to make the claim based simply on my own opinion that “God is doing a new thing by using polygamy to show that we should not limit our love to just one spouse.” What would you say to me? My statement is not supported by the Bible, and neither is yours. I can claim “God is doing this or that”, but what good is my opinion if it has no biblical support. Once we stop basing our beliefs on the BIble, we become no different than any other worldly way of thinking.
The reality is this. There is no greater “role” whether a woman is serving God as a housewife, working a full time job or as a pastor. The debate on whether a woman can be pastor is almost a waste of time. My point is that to think that a pastor is greater than a custodian who constantly shares the gospel and is a light where he is, is absurd and unbiblical.
To understand calling let’s look at it a certain way. If God is in charge of building His church, then like any construction site, you need workers and sub-contractors. If a sub-contractor doesn’t answer their phone after numerous times then God has to find another one. The reason more woman are in more “leadership” roles today, is because more men aren’t answering the call. One day we will be judge not by what we did but by what we were called to do. No matter what “role” we have in the church, the fact is that if we do not do the role we have been called to do then we are in sin. It is a sin to know what we ought to do and not do it. (James 4:17)
Women can be a pastor, teacher, singer or evangangelist. No part of the body is greater than another and are all necessary. There should not be a debate on whether a woman can have a ministry. Ministry is full time position for everyone though, we should either be ministering to others or constnslty ministering to God. Every single person has the same calling on their life. That calling Is to be apart of the church and in Christ, only our function is different. We can be in ministry and not in Christ. If we are in Christ then we are automatically in ministry. God is moving and using anyone who answers his call. If men and women refuse his call he can use rocks or whatever he choses.
A couple of thoughts came to me as I read what you wrote and then read the comments. First, God calls whoever God wants to do the massive amount of work that needs to be done for God’s kingdom. We get caught up in arguing about who can and cannot be called while there is so much pain and suffering in the world. All are needed to do the work of God. Some of the commenters said you didn’t logically or theologically support your position. You only used story. Well, Jesus used story all the time to teach. Story can be powerful. It doesn’t always wrap things up in a neat package, but encourages and challenges us to think and to search our hearts. Keeps the stories coming.
Thank you Amy!!!
Go for it girl!!!
Having read the initial article and all of the comments I’m hesitant to wade in with an opinion. However, talk of pastors (male or female) and ordination etc takes my mind back to the following article about Who we see as worthy of ordination. I seriously think it is worth taking time to consider what Mike Frost talks about here. http://www.theworkofthepeople.com – go to browse and search eliminate laity to watch his short video.
hi jaime. thank you for that link. i am a big fan of michael frost. i reposted the video to my facebook – friend me and you will find the comment i made with it regarding ordination. Teanna Sunberg facebook page. And, I do agree with you that we are all sent / ordained. For me, ordained also has the additional important nuance of spiritual growth and academic rigeur in order to serve with a strong theological core.